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EXXEO

Biscuit Abuse

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This post is not about the terrible treatment Biscuits receive but rather about what the line of cheating and competitive trading is. For a good example let's take a look at a team in the SHL. The first oddity I want to discuss is how someone in the SHL manages to get 3 GHL 1st round picks - how you ask -trading Terd Ferguson and all five of his cousins to the other team for 3 McDavids. I'm not saying the individual is cheating but I'm not comfortable with what is going on...do you really think this is a fair tactic?


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@Exxeo, Please refrain from calling out other GMs on the forums. Please talk to the GM in question directly or have a little chat with Anders himself if you deem necessary. Thanks.


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I guess abuse is the right word. You could PM him, because he might not even visit these forums and point those trades to anders so he might revert them


 

 

 

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I'm not trying to say he is cheating Canucks, in fact, if he's using different teams that are not another form of himself, he is just being really good at using the system to his advantage. I've done this before too when I got ticked at everyone for stealing my team while I had to be away for a time...I didn't cheat but looking back on it, I don't know if all my moves were conduct-worthy moves. I want us here in Biscuit to hash out what is a good policy to try and abide by - it may be a fruitless endeavor but we all need to try to get on the same page as to what is and is not acceptable. Like I said, I've been there and am not perfect in any way but we need to have this discussion because I don't want people to up and quit because other people are good at extreme moves.

 

I have messaged him as well and re-iterated that I don't think he is cheating per-say...what I do want to do is challenge everyone reading this to ask yourself before a trade if the person (computer controlled or not) you are sending the trade to would offer the same offer to you, how would you react? There needs to be balance.

 

P.S. I changed my initial verbiage to be less condemning...


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Well, that's three picks, all likely top-5, gone to the same team. All from trades with computers, and all with the same pattern - a bunch of bench warmers for a great pick. I guess it's not cheating as it's within the game mechanics, but one could never pull off any of those trades with a human manager. It's quite blatant abuse of being able to trade with computers, personally I don't think such trades should be possible.


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Don't be so quick to say any of that guys. First I PMed Anders about it already. Second the person traded with teams that are 13th through 16th in the GHL standings. If all 3 of those teams demote ALL of the draft picks the person is trading for become SHL draft picks. It is why I have been trying to really encourage Steve, with the currently 14th place team, to do what he can to stay above 15th and doing everything I can to get those other teams teams to demote. (Edit required here. Sorry to the "new" person with the currently 14th place team but I want to see your team demote because of what this guy did before you took the team over. Should Anders revert all the trades involved with what the player in question did my stance completely changes.) Of course one will have to lose down to the SHL in the playoffs but we can ask Anders to revert the latest trade at least if not all of them.

 

I also traded for the persons own draft picks that they traded to one of the AI teams because should the person promote than their picks become top 4 GHL draft picks. I will be asking Anders to revert said trade that I made for his picks after the playoffs begin so the AI team he gave the picks to will keep them so the player cant trade back for them should the person wise up so to speak.

 

Yes the person is exploiting the AI to an extreme degree but they are really failing hard at doing it since at least 2 of the picks will end up SHL draft picks (not high end GHL draft picks) if Steve can keep his team 14th or better. Also this is the same manager that for 2 seasons was at the bottom of the GHL Biscuit standings (with a lot of bad signings to go with it) so they aren't very good at running a team as it is. Edit 2: fun fact they were running one of the teams that they took a 1st round pick from just last season.

 

No exploiting the AI, or any game mechanics for that matter, isn't directly cheating but it is on the same level and very unsportsmanlike to do. That is why so many online games punish players via bans for using exploits. Exploiting the AI via trades should not be accepted, it should be brought up in the game world chat box (NOT IN THE FORUMS, the chat box is on a much more private level and brings attention to the exploit trade for all in the world to see. Also do not slander the person of offense. Just bring up the trade in question for others in the game world to see so it can be reported and investigated) and exposed to Anders via some type of report to him.

 

Someone smarter than this guy could be stealing what are likely to be top 4 GHL picks though by going after the right picks which is why I have been asking Anders to lock draft pick trading with AI teams before this person started these trades.

Edited by rainsilent

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That requires all in the league to be in on it. There are a number of managers that have in the past or do actively exploit the AI in this game world with not many visiting the forums. Thus a gentleman rule likely will not work due to the current situation. A "harder" approach of reporting to Anders is likely the best solution here sadly. Reporting said trades by bringing them up in the game world chat box however will serve as an in world memo that it isn't appropriate to be doing such things for the many that likely don't visit the forums.


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@ rainsilent - regarding privacy etc...I hardly use the chat...maybe I should look into that more often as it is isolated to that world. Also, I've had discussions with the individual and think things have been smoothed out. I don't know if it's necessary to bring it up to Anders if teams alter their tactics - besides, if the picks are actually trending toward SHL picks, in the end it doesn't matter a whole lot anyway...for now.


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@thewizard - I did like the gentlemans rule, however, I'm ok with giving up my 1st round picks for core talent (as long as it is an even value trade). Does the rule you've created prohibit that? And I do think you have a point rainsilent on people regarding the rule...


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I have recently exploited the AI in this game to gain picks and I can honestly tell you, I did not believe I was doing the wrong thing, just trying to improve my team. Since then, I have talked with Anders and I realized my mistakes. I am lucky I was not suspended. The main point of my reply was to tell you guys, please do not at hostile towards this user, understand all sides of the story, maybe he is a new user and is just trying to get ahead like I was. Don't PM him with an angry undertone, PM him and tell him you think what he is doing is wrong and as to have a civil conversation with him before taking any major action (reports, forum accusations ect.) But, that said, if he does not change his ways then take it up with Anders.

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EXXEO: Best rule of thumb, if you would not accept the trade, don't offer it to someone else.

If everyone followed this, the game world would be a better place. :)

 

That's what I go by if I trade with a CPU.

 

In all honesty,  we shouldn't  be trading picks with any CPU teams.

 

It's really not fair for the new manager and in my opinion is a form of cheating since you are gaining an unfair advantage over managers that don't want to abuse the system.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with CPU trades, as long as everything is kept fair and actually give up something of value for what you want and not fleece the CPU.


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Was looking at the trades as well when they were proposed (have quite a lot of young players on my shortlist so know pretty well when people are "cheating" or abusing the system), and was really glad to see that the guy doing the shady business didn't really know how to work the system.

 

It's not just this one team taking advantage of cpu in terms of picks, but a trend going on. A friend of mine played few seasons with the Cherry Valley Legends, and whenever his team went user on holiday, some teams immediately sent trade offers for some of the players I had shortlisted. (Had to tell my friend to log back in and check the trades to see if they were cool or not a couple of times..) So that's why I don't think the gentleman's pact is going to work in our world, as sad as that sounds. There will always be individuals who are going to exploit the system when it's possible. (And glad to see Wizard spread out the good word ;))

 

And in topic of trading picks to and from computers, I don't think it should be removed, just make it so the trade values for them are a lot bigger, or when a pick is in the trade the CPU doesn't accept trades if the human has x number of trading assets more or something of that sort. Not really sure how it should be done, but I don't think it should be removed altogether, when people can trade with computers for picks, while being fair and honest. (An example of this is my recent trading for SHL 1st rounders, which I think I have gotten around of making quite fair trades, giving away young NAT players in exchange as well as giving clearly better players to my trading partners, than which I have received back. You can share your opinions, but I sincerely believe I've done quite a good job with them.)


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Maybe toss in some mods to check on CPU trades and accept/reject them as per 'League's decision'.

 

Anyway it's not easy to trade with human managers as well. Not many managers are up for it or ask the impossible. What I did notice is managers not wanting to trade for players they need and if they got traded with the CPU, they suddenly start trading with the CPU to get those players... And that's usually arranged within the first days. Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

I mean that's kinda frustrating in many ways. I had that a couple of times in the past now; without calling any names.


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I think the solution might be to have GHL/SHL (at least) full of active teams with no room for CPU teams that people can take advantage of. 

 

If you increase value of draft picks, it will make trades between humans more complicated as you would have to fill the trade bar somehow to get a pick from someone.

 

Try to get some friends here and fill your leagues with active managers, then we do not have to take gentleman agreements or ask Anders to change the rules.

The only other solution is to lock CPU trades (CPU teams and users on vacation) to only other CPU teams - that still makes possible for CPU to trade if the team is in bad shape (a lot of injuries etc.), but prevent of exploiting them by humans.


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What I did notice is managers not wanting to trade for players they need and if they got traded with the CPU, they suddenly start trading with the CPU to get those players... And that's usually arranged within the first days. Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

I mean that's kinda frustrating in many ways.

 

Especially when they trade for said player and in return sent the CPU the player you requested in return.

 

That being said the CPU will send trades to human players. The ones I have seen sent my way have been... awkward to say the least. Case in point one I received very recently from the Campbell Nighthawks. The CPU, a number of days after the team went to CPU control, offered Jose Hanson for Leonardo Adame. This is actually the 3rd time that the CPU has offered me a high caliber player for a younger player with a high trade value. All such trades I have declined, at least unofficially as I haven't been able to decline the offer from the Nighthawks because it will not bring the offer up again for me to decline it (I did look at it the day it was offered to me) but it still is there.

 

Current trade offers

Team Offered Status Action

Campbell Nighthawks 7 days ago Your call Respond


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Try to get some friends here and fill your leagues with active managers, then we do not have to take gentleman agreements or ask Anders to change the rules.

This, although it's hard because of said exploits. Had a friend who joined the GHL but left due to some teams being way too good and players screwing him over when he went user on holiday. Heck that's the reason I don't want to get promoted from SHL because if I don't have the perfect team, no chance for me to succeed.

 

E:

Maybe toss in some mods to check on CPU trades and accept/reject them as per 'League's decision'.
 
This is something I could see working out as a temporary (or permanent) solution. Have 2-4 mods named for each game world and at least 2 of them would need to accept trades for them to go through. (Just with CPU and user on holiday I guess.) If something seems shady they could contact the offering teams.

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This, although it's hard because of said exploits. Had a friend who joined the GHL but left due to some teams being way too good and players screwing him over when he went user on holiday. Heck that's the reason I don't want to get promoted from SHL because if I don't have the perfect team, no chance for me to succeed.

 

E:

 
 
This is something I could see working out as a temporary (or permanent) solution. Have 2-4 mods named for each game world and at least 2 of them would need to accept trades for them to go through. (Just with CPU and user on holiday I guess.) If something seems shady they could contact the offering teams.

 

 

First point - I understand that, but in that case he should have played the way to demote to SHL, if his team was not good for GHL. About exploiting "user on holiday" - yes, that has to be stopped. But on the other hand, the time for becoming "On Holiday" is long enough so the player should be able to avoid that if he is active enough. After 10 or 15 games not logging in the game, and without possibility of setting lineup for many matches in future and without any control how backup players replace injured ones, it is impossible to succeed in any league. I said active managers...

 

Second point - yes, having some moderators/regulators would be fine. But for that Anders have to trust them, verify them (so they do not want to use this for their own benefit - for example agree to each other not to reject trades between themselves). And in game worlds with ~60 managers, I think it would be hard to find 4 that would like to do it and would have time to do that for a long time - because you might went into situation that all of them are not logging in anymore and it is again more work for Anders to solve it. For having some good game-masters (GM) or moderators, you would have to join all the worlds together or let such GM operating in all worlds.

I can imagine maybe a better way - have a button to report suspicious trade by anyone and then Anders and few GM enrolled from enthusiastic players, like rainsilent, to have access on all worlds and solve these issues by simply reverting trades where they agree on cheating or exploiting the CPU/Trade meter. If user has 3 suspicious trades, he can be banned from the game for some time or completely etc.


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If you don't want to jump up for that reason than you may be "waiting" for 3 or more seasons. Can't say I blame you either. So far as I know there isn't a game world that has gone on long enough to see it the most recent update has leveled the competition somewhat at the GHL level. Also pretty much no matter what there will, and should, be a gap between the best SHL teams and better GHL teams. However the gap as of current, thanks to some managers exploiting the AI, is rather excessive. A very good SHL team should only need a few high end players to be able to keep up when promoting in theory. Thanks to the AI trade abuse that happened in the past you currently need to completely redo your roster. I am really looking forward to several seasons down the road where the advantages from the trade abusing has gone away.

 

As for the user on holiday trades I would be behind a suggestion from the past of not letting the AI decide on trades for your team. Just have the trades sit and wait until the user gets back or is tossed from the team due to inactivity.


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I understand that, but in that case he should have played the way to demote to SHL, if his team was not good for GHL.

 

I can imagine maybe a better way - have a button to report suspicious trade by anyone and then Anders and few GM enrolled from enthusiastic players, like rainsilent, to have access on all worlds and solve these issues by simply reverting trades where they agree on cheating or exploiting the CPU/Trade meter. If user has 3 suspicious trades, he can be banned from the game for some time or completely etc.

His friend actually took over a pretty good team that just needed a goalie and a few Dmen to be a seriously competitive team. By the time he came back from his vacation status his team lost about 1/3rd of the best players it had. Some of them for not much in return.

 

As for your better way of having the report button I am completely behind. From there however I don't know where to take it in terms of how to do it. Straight to Anders would just flood him with way too much. Giving a few players control is a rather scary proposition given what I have seen happen on other online manager games. I think best scenario for such a thing might be that a reported trade goes to a "review board" made up of a number of players. The players debate and vote on the fairness. If they say no it goes to Anders for final decision on a revert with the reasoning as to why it was voted no. Even that however has issues. Chiefly that you are potentially asking for a lot of time on the side from a number of people. Not a lot of people are going to have that time to dedicate.

 

Also I would change the ban part to be strictly to making trades rather than banning from the game on the whole. As much as abusing the AI is unsportsmanlike to do it isn't direct cheating like multiple accounts. Thus getting banned from the game for abusing the AI via trades is a bit steep. Losing trading privileges for a time however is more reasonable.


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I find that one of the issues with trading with human players is the lack of communication by most. If a trade is rejected, a counter offer or a message saying why they are not interested would be awesome.

 

Often I get a trade rejected and don't receive a counter offer or a reason why they are not interested. IF you don't want to move that player, make him unavailable or tell me what it would take or simply tell me I don't have anything you want for said player. This is something I miss from H-D, where there was some sort of negotiation and a active chat for this purpose. Here the game world chat is barely used and could help negotiate and keep in touch with other managers.

 

Also I had decent players available all season and had to trade them to CPU teams since no one  made offers or counter offers on them even though they were available almost form the start of the season.


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I find that one of the issues with trading with human players is the lack of communication by most. If a trade is rejected, a counter offer or a message saying why they are not interested would be awesome.

 

Often I get a trade rejected and don't receive a counter offer or a reason why they are not interested. IF you don't want to move that player, make him unavailable or tell me what it would take or simply tell me I don't have anything you want for said player. This is something I miss from H-D, where there was some sort of negotiation and a active chat for this purpose. Here the game world chat is barely used and could help negotiate and keep in touch with other managers.

 

Also I had decent players available all season and had to trade them to CPU teams since no one  made offers or counter offers on them even though they were available almost form the start of the season.

 

Part explanation for the lack of communication from the community I find to be due to the forums being a mess and requiring different logins, not being accessible within the game and the pm system being kind of a mess right now.

 

What I'd like to see is game world specific forums added inside the game and pms being rewritten into different mailbox than the rest of the game "messages". Or into a chat window like the one found at the bottom of this page. This way the players couldn't not notice the forums or other messages, which I feel quite many don't realize exist as of now. Also I'd like to see some sort of in-trade-chat at some point, so instead of having to keep multiple tabs open when trading, you could have your chat on the other side of the popup screen and the trade assets on the other, with rewamped compare and add in / out methods. But that's a long way from now and would need redesigning the whole UX/UI (which I think should be done anyways).

 

This is just mumbling now and I'll leave it here. But I find that the separate forums are really a big disadvantage we have in GPH.

 

 

 

When it comes to rainsilent's point, I agree the players shouldn't be totally banned from the game, just not being able to trade at all. And the board seems like a good idea and something I'd like to be part of personally. But then again, not if it happens via these forums and not in game somehow.


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As for your better way of having the report button I am completely behind. From there however I don't know where to take it in terms of how to do it. Straight to Anders would just flood him with way too much. Giving a few players control is a rather scary proposition given what I have seen happen on other online manager games. I think best scenario for such a thing might be that a reported trade goes to a "review board" made up of a number of players. The players debate and vote on the fairness. If they say no it goes to Anders for final decision on a revert with the reasoning as to why it was voted no. Even that however has issues. Chiefly that you are potentially asking for a lot of time on the side from a number of people. Not a lot of people are going to have that time to dedicate.

 

Also I would change the ban part to be strictly to making trades rather than banning from the game on the whole. As much as abusing the AI is unsportsmanlike to do it isn't direct cheating like multiple accounts. Thus getting banned from the game for abusing the AI via trades is a bit steep. Losing trading privileges for a time however is more reasonable.

 

Yes, it is not possible that all the reports goes to Anders only, although he should have the final word, if it is not decided by the player board (I actually meant, that more than one vote to reverse the trade from those gamemasters will be needed). I have experience from football/soccer manager Hattrick, where in the peak, they had almost 1 milion active users and the development team was under 20 people, so it was not possible to manage the game, develop and take care of cheating, chat and conference abuse etc. They actually recruited a lot of managers from regular users = they did not paid them, only gave this special package, that was normally paid (a lot of useful tools and optical improvements, but no playing benefit). Over some time this group of GameMasters and Moderators evolved into some kind of nice group for each nation, working together, and if someone was quitting, they found replacement that was checked and required to be responsible etc. Senior international staff was keeping this national groups under watch so nobody from local gamemasters brake the rules. It was genius move since they got a lot of responsible users that are watching over the game, for free. And it mostly worked very well.

 

The ban was meant to be for 1 week for example, after that you can return. If you cheat, you should loose your team. If you abuse the trade AI, you should have some punishment, ban for week is ok, but your suggestion also sounds good - but I'm not sure if it will be easy to implement ban for user for just trading.


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