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rainsilent

My thoughts on endurance

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That pretty much says everything, doesn't it? I think it is the most difficult skill to get right. How do you balance it when players with 40 in it in the lower leagues have to play the same time as players with 80+ in the higher ones?


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I guess everyone in lower leagues has the issue, so at least it's fair. On the other hand, this needs some balancing. Pros in the GHL should have better endurance, but not twice as semipros in lower leagues.


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It does need balancing but how? It is the attribute that I want the least amount into at all levels by far no matter the league I am in. That makes me dare ask how relevant is the attribute? I don't know if this makes my team more susceptible to late game heroics than otherwise but so long as I get the results most of the time what does it matter that I lost the occasional game late?


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Unless at the lower levels, players use less endurance during a game, because the players they are playing against aren't as good of skaters or as physical. So in that logic, having a 60 Endurance in LIHL would be the same as a guy who is a 85-90 endurance in the GHL. Although this is just me spitballing and talking out my ass

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I am pretty sure coding is not that complex.

 

I think endurance doesn't matter at all. I had 40 endurance 86 rated sniper playing great two seasons averaging 19 minutes per game, 2nd line and pp, without even getting blue fit icon.

 

All he got was that remark in assistents report, which probably just reflects on the fact that he has 40 endurance, while at the same time doesn't reflect on his actuall game performance, since he performed great.

 

So, probably just a rating we can ignore, unfortunately.


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Well, i hardly ever look at players passing rating, but endurance is one of the first i'm looking for. I've always had very strong defensive teams, it as served me well. Passing and shooting are dead last for me, so should i conclude that these are ratings that we should ignore???

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You need passing and shooting to some degree no matter the offensive tactic you use. The more skill based your offensive tactic the more you arguably need them. Thus the only one you really can ignore is endurance.


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I don't rely on passing and shooting tp win games, it's defense first. More than 600 wins compared to 365 losses by using this tactic. Thus you can ignore passing and shooting.

Also, some defensive tactics need endurance to succeed, while at the same time some offensive tactics don't really need any passing or shooting to succeed.

So, for me, shooting and especially passing are futile, at best.

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No defensive tactic needs endurance. I'm running spread on the team with the photos above and that is the most demanding defensive tactic and lack of endurance isn't an issue.

 

No offensive tactic "needs" passing or shooting but you need passing and shooting to some degree to score. It doesn't matter how good your team is defensively you are not going to stay in the GHL with a team with low 80s at best passing and scoring.


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I came within 1 win to win the Golden Cup, and finished first in GHL, in Clapper..it took 16 season, starting from LIHL and climbing each step of the ladder....but hey, what do i know.

And also, look at the last word of player characteristic...

AGGRESSIVE FORECHECK

The aggressive forecheck causes the opposing team to fail in their defensive assignments since the four skaters down low aggressively attacking the puck in waves.

 

PROS

Won´t allow the opponent to regroup and gain momentum

 

CONS

May open up space in the neutral zone

 

PLAYER CHARACTERISTICS

Speedy players with grit and endurance

 

Ciao and Cheers!!!

Fred

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Yet I am sure it wasn't with a deficient team in passing and scoring. I'm pretty sure those abilities were at least comparable to the rest of the GHL. There is a difference between not emphasizing something and it being useless.


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And also, look at the last word of player characteristic...

AGGRESSIVE FORECHECK

The aggressive forecheck causes the opposing team to fail in their defensive assignments since the four skaters down low aggressively attacking the puck in waves.

 

PROS

Won´t allow the opponent to regroup and gain momentum

 

CONS

May open up space in the neutral zone

 

PLAYER CHARACTERISTICS

Speedy players with grit and endurance

 

Since you edited this in after I initially replied let me reply again.

 

This does not mean that it is needed. With a number of tactics, in the characteristics, it lists things that are not player skills. What is listed there are things you want to emphasize across the players on your team in general. That said, even with that tactic, you don't need high endurance because a player with 60 endurance can play 20+ minutes and be ok. If a player with 60 endurance can play effectively at 20 minutes and a 99 endurance player can't play past 25, no matter the tactics used, how relevant is endurance in actuality? It is not.

 

On the contrary with passing and scoring, no matter how good the team is otherwise, I've never seen a team that is deficient in passing and scoring be competitive in a season. I don't think anyone else has either. In regards to you doing it in clapper, I am going to point out 1 fact. It was a fast game world. That means that it got to a point, where in order to compete at the GHL level, you needed several 90+ overall players. Those kinds of players have 90+ in nearly everything with what isn't 90+ very close to 90 in general. Thus like I said it isn't that passing and shooting is useless. It is that you weren't emphasizing them and you were taking that to mean that it was useless when it actually wasn't.


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Endurance is a problem with goalies. There's no reason I can only play my starting goalie for 1 game at a time before he's tired.

This shouldn't be a problem in the upper levels

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Endurance makes a slight difference with goalies. If the goalie has roughly 60 or lower endurance they can go 2-3 games before they get blue tired. A goalie with 99 endurance may be able to stretch to 5-6 games. That said the number of shots faced should make a difference. It makes sense that a goalie facing 40+ shots would be more tired after a game than one facing 20.

 

That said in regards to goalies playing x number of games before getting tired I would go to and think about using the playoffs as a basis. Most goalies should be able to do 3 games at least correct? However, 5 is quite a bit. That is comparable to 4 and 7 of the NHL. That said I know a number of you are thinking about the fact that you see starters play every single playoff game. 2 things I need to point out. First, real-life teams aren't playing all of their games back to back to back endlessly. There are days in between for rest. For playability and enjoyment reasons I don't think adding in those extra days of rest is a good idea. Second, a long playoff run is very taxing on the starting goalie if every series goes 6 or 7 by all accounts. I would argue that is pretty well represented in the game.

 

All of this said I would still make a relatively small tweak to goalie endurance. I think the lower end of the scale is fine for goalie endurance. I think a 99 endurance goalie should be able to stretch it out a game or two more.


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attachicon.gifScreenshot (17).png

attachicon.gifScreenshot (18).png

 

That pretty much says everything, doesn't it? I think it is the most difficult skill to get right. How do you balance it when players with 40 in it in the lower leagues have to play the same time as players with 80+ in the higher ones?

 

Off-topic:

 

I'm curious about your tabs, 'how to be productive'? 

 

On a different on-topic note:

 

Yes, endurance is probably the skill with the lowest impact. For goalies it has a bigger impact but it might need some tweaking to spice things up.


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How does endurance in youth decline(21-24 years old)? Both my Buzzer Goalies (who are playing regular games and training well) are decreasing in Endurance. Shouldn’t that naturally be increasing as they are playing regular games? Take Eli Mercer for instance: he is my starting goalie for the North Haven “Articwolves” and since he was 18 he has gone from an endurance level of 50 to decreasing again this season to a 47. He is only 22 and has played 50+ Games since being on my squad. Can anyone explain that?

 

Also, @rainsilent: you said you never had issues with injuries? How have you not? I have guys++ step on the ice and pull hamstrings!**

 

**As an update to that: I just brought my second line Center off of IR and now I’m sending my backup Goalie to the IR. Earlier in the week I sent my top Defenseman to the IR as he was out for the season with a 32 game injury!

 

++ I can’t make this stuff up - I sent my goalie to the IR and called up a Goalie to cover. The first game he plays in, he gets hurt. When will the madness stop?!


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Here’s another question: My Defenseman that I just put on IR had a 57 Endurance rating and I ran him on my top line and Top PP. I made a move to acquire another Defenseman en lieu of the injury. This new Defenseman has a 80+ Endurance rating but seems to be struggling more with the Top Line, Top PP requirements than the guy with significantly lower Endurance. How does that work?


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Also, @rainsilent: you said you never had issues with injuries? How have you not? I have guys++ step on the ice and pull hamstrings!**

 

Luck? I really don't know but I don't usually get many injuries over the course of a season. 25 games into the season for the Minutemen and no injuries yet. My other team over nearly 3 seasons and only roughly 6 injuries to skaters over that time. My former starting goalie from the past two seasons matches that total alone though when he was a starter so that team wasn't immune to injuries.

 

The only thing I can really say is that I try to avoid my players getting blue tired as much as I can. Also, I know a number of managers try to avoid penalties a lot which means fair or safe on the fair play setting. I suspect that is a contributor for me as well.

 

Historically I haven't ever gotten many injuries over the course of a season and only a few seasons in my roughly 30 seasons worth of experience have I ever had injury problems.

 

Edit: As for players decreasing in ratings I think that is due to one of two things. First is player skill caps and the player in question having that skill above the given skill cap that the player was given. The second is that the player may already be declining. Given you are asking about a younger player I am thinking the skill cap is the more likely thing.


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Hmm - maybe I’m just getting unlucky - I train most my top 3 lines on Medium and when they get to Blue Fit I turn them to easy training. Once they hit Blue Tired, I take them off of PP/PK to reduce ice time. Bummer.


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Here's my 2 8 cents on Endurance.  I don't have any input on the initial post, other than that I agree with everything stated - this is more in response to "how relevant is the Endurance attribute".

 

Endurance impacts the game in two ways - Performance and Injuries.  Or a better way to look at it is, Endurance impacts a player's Health... and a player's Health impacts Performance and Injuries.

 

1. Players with a low Endurance rating get tired faster (assuming training intensity and ice time are equal).  Players who are tired/exhausted, in theory, will perform less than their attributes indicate.  How much less, I have no idea.  If a player has 99 skating and if they are fatigued they perform as if they are a 95 skating, then that's still pretty good.  I don't think it's known how much ratings actually drop for tired/exhausted players.

 

2. Endurance is one of the many factors that impact a players Health - and low Health (tired/exhausted) can have an impact on injuries.  There are other factors that impact health such as training intensity and ice time... and other factors that impact injuries such as how the other team plays (hard/dirty), being hit and a players own injury proneness.  So the injury thing is not as simple as saying a player with 60 Endurance should get injured more than a player with 90 Endurance since there are so many other factors.

 

So my takeaway is that players with lower endurance, if not managed properly, "should" get tired faster and thus, perform worse and get injured more - but that doesn't necessarily mean it will happen.  Someone in great shape who eats well and exercises "should" live longer than someone in bad shape who eats like crap... but that's not always the case.  Don't like that analogy, ok... someone who graduates college "should" turn out more successful than someone who doesn't, but again, not always the case (Bill Gates).  Much like the game, there is an element of randomness to life as well as many other factors. 

 

*Sources:

(a.) my own observations playing the game (i.e. most of my long term injuries and/or players who get injured multiple times per season have been suffered by players with a low Endurance rating)... although I haven't noticed much difference on the performance side.

(b.) a post from Anders a long time ago confirming this is how it should work (forget which topic, I'd have to find it)


*BISCUIT - SEASON 16 - TARNISHED SILVER BISCUIT PLATE CHAMPION*

 

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